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But first, I filled all the not!fic prompts a little while ago, so here are the links to the two new ones:

BBC Sherlock: Moran/Moriarty kidfic (warnings for blood and death)

RDJ!Holmes movies: secretly a virgin Moran/Moriarty (featuring demisexual/greyA!Moriarty)

And now, here are a bunch of feelings about Commander Sam Vimes:

I was wanting to write up this post around this time last month, but I couldn't because that would have been kind of a give-away on Yuletide. In the process of thinking about it over that time and not writing anything down I may have become less coherent, but I'm going to at least try. (This post is brought to you by The Wire, The Hour, and the first Matthew Swift book, all of which haven been making my feelings about class especially salient and confused.)

I really really like Sam Vimes. His books are among my favorites among Discworld, and I've been fascinated by his character development. He's great both as a flawed character who recognizes his own flaws, and as a character who makes me think about myself and where I stand on things. (This isn't a real lit crit essay - I'm not going to be defending my claims much. But I'd be happy to discuss or expand on these points or any later points if anyone wants to discuss.)

But my main investment in Sam Vimes is as an upwardly-mobile character from a working-class background. Because he is so rooted in his background and what he has learned from being a working-class, inner-city kid, and how he can apply that to the world of the rich and mighty and bring justice to them. And at the same time, he's gaining privilege - he's the richest man in Ankh-Morpork, now, and he's very uncomfortable with the trappings of his privilege, but he's totally willing to use the power that comes with his new authority and social status.

I know some people are conflicted about that, as I've seen people criticize Vimes as becoming 'The Man,' and not realizing what kind of power he has. And I think that's definitely a fair criticism? But at the same time, Vimes is never going to have the kind of intrinsic understanding of upper-class power as Sybil does, because he didn't grow up with that power, because he was a working-class kid and he didn't have any of the power that he has now. And if I have to choose, I'm always going to read stories that have working-class people rising to power and using that power to further their ends, because the other option is upper-class people holding on to power and furthering their ends, and historically that hasn't been a very good story for me and mine.

(Incidentally, the difference between being born to class privilege and rising to the upper-class is why I love love love Sybil and Sam's relationship - every time Sam turns to Sybil for advice because he recognizes that she understands what's going on better than he does my face goes like :DD, and every time Sybil gives Sam some advice on how to deal with his new world and then is like 'but fuck it, Sam, you're doing great anyway, seriously, fuck the haters,' my face goes :DDDDD)

BUT I'm also really conflicted about Vimes' story, for two reasons:

1) COPS, I am unsure about COPS in general, and making my working-class hero also so deeply ingrained in centralized authority makes me nervous. This bothers me more in later books that early ones, which I think is part of the Watch getting more established and powerful as Vimes gets more established and powerful. From Guards! Guards! to Night Watch, I would say that Vimes is still an outsider to the establishment, and after Night Watch he is sometimes forced outside but he's still clearly part of an establishment that is textually tyrannical. And I am totally thrilled about Vimes pursuing his goals and his own ideal of justice as an outsider with all of this class-based righteous rage, but giving the same thing the backing of the establishment just- crosses my signals? I can't figure out how I feel about it.

2) YOUNG SAM. And this is not Young Sam's fault. It is the consequence of over-identification, and (of course) my own anxieties. Because (as may have been gathered), I am emphatically a working-class person, as are my parents and grandparents and so on. And I do have a lot of class-consciousness, because 'class isn't an issue in the US' is bullshit, thanks. But I'm moving up in terms of income - as a grad student I'm doing well for myself already, relative to what I'm used to. I have health insurance, this is amazing. And if I ever graduate and get a job, basically any prospective salary in my field would be way more money than I or most people in my immediate family have been able to hope for. And I am 100% in favor of more money, because money is super useful. But the experiences I've had with people expressing class privilege are such that it makes my skin crawl to think of my children being raised as middle-class kids with middle-class experiences. Like, who will they be if they didn't start working at six or seven, doing odd jobs for the family or working in the family business? Who will they be if they're used to getting what they ask for, if their first car is brand-new and delivered with their new driver's license? How am I supposed to relate to them?

This is a lot to lay on some entirely hypothetical children, so usually I don't worry about it. But Young Sam throws all of that into relief, because here's a kid who's going to grow up as the son of the richest couple in Ankh-Morpork, his dad's the second-most powerful man in the city, and he can recognize how far he's better off than his dad was and how much privilege he has, but he's never going to viscerally experience it the way that Sam Vimes Sr. has.

And then this all bled into the fic I wrote for Yuletide, and my solution there is basically "stop worrying, people are going to have their own struggles to deal with, and you should never wish your own struggles on to them."

I guess the problem is that I don't find that particularly satisfying.

So, in conclusion: I have a lot of class issues to work through! (I knew that already.) I really want to know how Young Sam develops as he grows up! And I don't think this was very coherent, sorry!
This entry was originally posted at http://neveralarch.dreamwidth.org/55583.html. Comment wherever you want.

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( 8 comments — Leave a comment )
justice_turtle
Jan. 10th, 2013 01:21 am (UTC)
This is very thinky and interesting and I don't have much coherent to say about it! But re: COPS - I agree with your reading of Vimes's changing status, and (I have my own issues about the judicial system okay) I think there's really the potential for an amazing analysis of the eternal balancing act between law and justice, to be done there. Sir Pterry hasn't done that analysis, because *augh, damn you Alzheimer's(?)* he's beginning to repeat himself... but it needs to be done. IMO. Because the law is made by the upper class, usually for the upper class, whereas justice is for all, especially the powerless. And there is no fictional character in history better poised to be the center of an analysis of that dichotomy than Sam Vimes.
neveralarch
Jan. 10th, 2013 05:31 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I think the point about balancing between law (which is coded as upper-class) and justice (which is often coded as lower-class) is really good. I do think Pratchett has addressed that from time to time, though he's never made it the focus of a book - certainly he's addressed the tension in Vimes' mind between The Law and Justice, with Justice generally being his guiding motivation, and The Law as a kind of tempering force? It's an especially interesting distinction in Ankh-Morpork, where the state of the law is in flux as Vimes and Vetinari shape the city more and more, while Vimes' sense of justice is also shifting to incorporate a lot more about equality along different dimensions.

I do think if Pratchett devoted a real book to that discussion it would be AWESOME and might help me sort out my mind wrt COPS and Vimes.
etirabys
Jan. 10th, 2013 06:15 am (UTC)
This was odd because I am Sam Jr., sort of- my dad was working class, my mom was fairly wealthy (except by Korean sixties standards where everyone was poor. Actually, there's probably a lot of interesting things about this that can be articulated by people smarter than I am, but basically all I have to say is (1) Korea got a lot, lot richer in the last fifty years, very rapidly (2) there's practically an entire generation whose experience with money vary from their parents (3) this is interesting to me but probably boring to you so sorry for putting this in the comment I guess?) and then there's me, and I confess I have had a really very easy time growing up. And my dad once admitted to me that he didn't know if that was right.

So... yes. That was a while ago, and I'm going to have this in my head for a while.

I don't have a lot of things to say about this because (1) different country with some different history re: class (2) probably too privileged to talk about it anyway? But head-nodding at this post, which was very interesting. Also re: cops- echoing above person, I wish Terry Pratchett would say something about it (it could be very very interesting coming from him) but if he's going to handle it like he handled trafficking in Snuff I'd rather he not, I guess. Always a fan, though.

(ALSO YES SYBIL/SAM.)

Well, uh. In the end I don't actually have anything very useful to say, but the post was so interesting.
neveralarch
Jan. 10th, 2013 05:46 pm (UTC)
Ah, I'm glad this post was interesting/made any sense at all. I'm also finding your comment really interesting - I'm already applying my American experience of class to a character written by an English author, so I'm not worried about bringing in Korea too. (Although obvs different history etc - it's just interesting to think about how the inter-generational class differences which I'm thinking about here are almost the norm in Korea, if I'm reading your comment right, whereas in the US it's obviously something that does happen, but doesn't happen as often as the 'American Dream' or whatever would have you expect.)

I went to a college where the average person was way way above my income-level/class, and some of my good friends were middle-class kids with one or two working class parents. I remember them telling me about how their parents tried to get them to understand the values and experiences that come out of a working-class background, and they definitely came out of it more aware of their privilege but not necessarily able to relate to their parents' experiences. Which is fair, because I can't really relate to my parents' experience in the 60s, 70s, 80s either, but- idk, this is just me restating a lot of what is in the post already, there's something here which I haven't managed to wrap my head around yet.

Wrt COPS (always all caps for me, haha), I do think Pratchett has some interesting things to say about the tension between The Law and Justice/authority and the working class, especially in Night Watch and Feet of Clay, but it seems like he usually comes down on the side of cops because in this case the cop is Sam Vimes and the bad officers are an aberration. I do wish he'd give it a book and look at it more in-depth and with more nuance, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

End this long comment on a positive note, SYBIL/SAM FOREVER, there are a lot of couples that I love in Discworld canon, but Sybil/Sam are just about at the top of the list.
etirabys
Jan. 10th, 2013 06:09 pm (UTC)
I'd be leery of calling it the norm, but I know I have met a lot of people- especially teachers, actually- who have stories about being the first in their family to attend college, etc. Usually in the form of inspiring their students to study (if I can get up at 5am to trek across the mountain in my village to get to classes, YOU DUDES CAN FINISH YOUR HOMEWORK, etc). Of course this is all anecdotal, but it makes sense I guess? After WWII there was this sort of. Vacuum at the top. And people filled it up in the seventies, eighties, nineties. War and colonialism shook it all up and then now the order is settling down and solidifying again. I think the richest people and corporations are chaebol, whose families were rich quite a way back, but most people doing well right now are... the first generation educated/rich.

Cough. THIS IS INTERESTING TO ME, YES.

Right! Night Watch! (I'll have to reread Feet of Clay, but Night Watch I can remember.) "in this case the cop is Sam Vimes and the bad officers are an aberration"- he does treat it that way. The Watch is not, under Sam Vimes or Carrot, allowed to really turn into an instrument of harm. There is chaos, and the Watch comes in and cleans it up.

I do wonder what would happen without Vimes and Carrot, though. They seem to hold the Watch up by strength of individual character.

SYBIL/SAM. This pairing has a forever place in my heaaart. A GOOD PLACE.
neveralarch
Jan. 11th, 2013 04:22 pm (UTC)
I see, I see. You may have gathered that I know very little about Korea - the chaebol are probably the only thing I know much at all about, because they were a major part of a political economy class I took. But this is super fascinating, thanks for bringing it up and filling me in!

I'm thinking of Feet of Clay just because there are some scenes with the emerging middle class and the established upper class where I felt like Vimes was going "but I'm not the police for you," which I thought was interesting because that's basically the opposite of what the police usually do. But I've reread Night Watch more recently than Feet of Clay, so I may be misremembering.

Vimes and Carrot, yes, totally, and it's interesting since Vimes is so against kings because a good man can die and be replaced by a bad man, and then you have tyranny? But he's still setting up this system where it works because he is a good man in charge and the whole thing would be terrifying if there was a bad man in charge. And it all does fall apart in The Fifth Elephant when Sgt Colon is put in charge.

I have read these books maybe too many times. But I really do wonder what will happen as the Watch grows and the original generation of Vimes' cops retire/die. Oh, but fic rec, if you want it: Mister Vimes'd Go Spare, which is about Vimes dying (D:) and then becoming a god of policing (me: :D, Vimes: D:), and doesn't resolve any of the issues we were talking about but it's just really fun.
etirabys
Jan. 11th, 2013 04:26 pm (UTC)
Haha, it's alright! I'm sorry, Korea in the last fifty years is just something that's very interesting to me personally, and sometimes I can't hold myself back. Cough.

Also. This fic. IT EXISTS. When I saw the link and the description a hoarse sound just kind of leapt out of my throat.

Cough. Anyway, yes. Pratchett talks much more about individuals within the police rather than... the police.

...I CAN SAY NOTHING MORE THAT IS REALLY INTELLIGENT BECAUSE I AM GOING TO READ THIS FIC

THANK YOU FOR THE REC! <3
neveralarch
Jan. 14th, 2013 06:09 pm (UTC)
Super late with replying, because I was in Boston with no internet, but I'm glad you're excited about the fic rec, because I was like, yes yes, serious conversation, OH THAT FIC, I LOVE THIS FIC, I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING SO YOU CAN READ IT, haha. Anyway.
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